Celica Forums General Discussion Engine and Performance 400hp V8 vs. 400hp 4 cylinder

That would be nice if that was true EuRoBoGT, but I think 11's might be the best I could ever hope for. Not sure though. Plus mine will be a lot heavier than it should be, with all the chrome, sound system, etc...
I have more fun at shows than I do at tracks. You ever go to shows in Texas?

nothing can beat a celica, common you know this man

Okay, I guess 11's was wishing a little too much. I would happy with 12's.

Damn right REDDASHCELICA01, but only if you grade in more than drag racing. Like...Looks, style, handling, price, reliability, interior room, gas mileage, etc...

Hahaha badceli I'm serious. it's really not cool IMO, read it and let me know what you think of it.
https://celicahobby.com/ubbthreads/thread.f_1953355375_0_collapsed_5__1.html

Also I will offer you a double your bullshit back guarantee.

Well shit. Not sure what to say about all that. I can't tell if you're pissed or glad about it. I have been there and done that before. Always works out in the end.

I'm pissed, but trying not to let it bring me down, so what happened do tell, you can PM me about it if you don't want to share it with the world.

There isn't enough time in a day for me to tell you all my stories. Some day we'll have to sit and drink all night and I'll tell you some stuff that will make you say "Damn, that is one messed up life you have had there".

the celica looks better anyway

Damn right!

Now you say "For sho"

Okay iggy, I'll tell you one quick one if it will make you feel better.
About 17 years ago, I was dumped by a girl I loved and was going to marry. After that, I said to hell with relationships, I have my motocross bike and I'm going to be the next World champion.
So a couple years past and I had been without a girlfriend for a long time, when I finally met a great girl. We had been together for a few months when I had to take a trip to do some training with the Special Forces in the Army for a month. Couldn't wait to get back to see her again.
When I got back, I went to her house and knocked on the door, she opens it and says "Oh, you're back, ummm this isn't really a good time". I said "Why not?". She says "Because my old boyfriend has moved back in with me and we are back together again, sorry".

ok that does sux, that must have ripped your heart out Glad to see you found a good one this time

Yup. I do have a good one now. Can you believe an old dork like me actually got a young, rich, model to marry me? Had to go to Germany to find her, but things are pretty good now.
I just noticed that you look exactly like my little brother and he does pretty good with the girls, so I'm sure you will be okay.

Now let's go back to talking about cars before somebody asks us what the hell we are talking about.

QTRMLR_1 said he's going to come on here and give me his take on this topic. You know he is a die hard racer. Anybody that strips out their interior to shave another fraction of a second off their 1/4 mile is definitely a die hard.

Got one more question on top of this one.
How do I reach a higher top speed? Does the c2power tranny come with a longer final drive? What would be a guess on what kind of top speed we could reach with this tranny? Sorry if I sound like an idiot, I don't know anything about transmissions.

i believe final drive is not in the tranny, it's in the differential. maybe (read: likely) i'm wrong

No. You might be right on that. Will somebody who knows jump in here before I say something else stupid?

I really have to run now and do something, so I don't have time to post up some stuff I found on the topic of this thread. But to answer your question, I found this on the c2power website:

"We have a COMPLETLY NEW INSIDE (all gears, final drive, LSD) from Chromly-molibidenium (as strong as possible material). from 1-6 gears teeth are straight cut to hold as much torque as possible."

And in the chart the final drive in the C2 GT 6spd tranny is unchanged from the Toyota GT at 4.312. So the top speed is not increased.

http://www.c2power.com/?menu=3&submenu=1&id=5

Well that's good information. Can't wait to see what you found out on the other topic.

So how in the heck do we increase our top speed?

look just use this 1/4 mile calcultor

http://www.battleoftheimports.com/classes/battlecalc.htm

i know it wont be exact but it is close

and 400 hp from a 2500 lbs car (celica) does the 1/4 in 10.7 (acording to the website)

a 400 hp car from a 3500 hp car (mustang v-8) does in in about 12 seconds

that doesn't take into account things like the launch, RWD vs. FWD, etc. If the Celica is still FWD it'll have a hard time putting that to the ground on the launch, while the Mustang won't have as hard a time.

not gonna read through 3 pages so If this has been said then sorry lol

400 hp vs 400 hp is a stupid arguement to begin with. You might as well argue which weighs more a ton of feathers or a ton of bricks. in the end it's still a ton.

now 8 vs 4 cylinders doesnt matter. 400 hp is 400 hp.

now the who will win a race will be decided by the following OTHER factos which need to be included in the arguement to make it a valid discussion.

1) are we talkin RWD, AWD, FWD?
2) what kinda torque does each car have?
3) what gearing and transmission does each car have?
4) whats the weight of the car?
5) are we talking N/A or turbo power? (elevation would affect a N/A motor more then F/I)

then you'll have to take into consideration driver skill. All you can do with the question you asked is hear opinions. and in the end it will come down to a real race to determine the outcome. It's the only way to know. even then the next race could come out different.

^word up, same with the powerband talk, if the driver knows how to drive it right and keep it in high revs it shouldnt have a problem with keeping on a low end powered car. i think the celica could take it, being its lighter then if you had a 400 hp street interior celica vs 400 hp street interior stang. the fwd i believe loses LESS power in the drivetrain but i could be wrong.

Thanks euroboygt, I wish it was that easy. That would be great.

Thanks renfield90.

Thanks Lucky_317,
No problem. You don't have to read all three pages. You're more than welcome to tell me your opinion, even it has been said. In fact, if you did try to read it all, you would fall asleep because iggy and I got off topic and talked about the girls that have dumped us before. That went on for about a page.
Anyway, you're the first one to say 400hp is 400hp. Sorry, I didn't think it was a stupid question. Since the two engines are so different. You will have to excuse me, I'm not very bright and will be asking more stupid questions in the future. So if you see me ever start another topic, you might as well just figure "Oh shit, not this dumbass with another stupid question". Sorry.

Thanks eric_h.

C.E.L.I.C.A. = Car Every Lady Intrigues Captivating Alot
makes no sense, but the abbreviation makes it good

Thanks for telling me it made no sense stefanic because I was feeling really stupid trying to figure out what it COULD mean. Good try though.

One more question on top of all my other questions.
This is how my turbo kit is being done right now. Does anybody see a problem with the way this is set up? Performance wise?

2

3

So there is a few questions I'm still trying to figure out..

1. Is a 400hp V8 the same as a 400hp 4 cylinder?

2. How do we increase the top speed of our cars?

3. Is this a good way to set up a turbo for performance?

i no longer have my celica...bought a mustang instead to haev as a dailt driver..lol
so OUCH. hehe

Hahahahah read it some are nice lmao

just get the race setup and tell us the out come but this does come down to the torque figures more than anything else in the engine

eric...the way to increase the top end is through the c2 tranny...he posted on the other site about it...gears 1-4 are straight cut, adn the same gearing as the GT original 5 speed, but 5th and 6th gears are open...he had it built this way because he could ONLY hit 270 km/h, and had a lot more juice left...pm him or go to the other site...or shoot them an email on their site...last time I talked to him I was left to understand that this is the way it is setup

celicadragon, it's going to be a few more months before I can take him on. My car is about to come out of the shop with the turbo, but I have to save up some more money over the next few months before I pull the engine and do the internals. I won't be able to beat a built Mustang with just a turbo. Just trying to learn all I can until then.

Thanks Steve, I'll look through his site and see if I can learn something about his tranny, because I don't know what that means when you say "5th and 6th gears are open" I'll have to ask him what his top speed is too. I'm really curious now.

I'm sorry but unless you're spending a crap load of money on full internals and some awesome tuning you arent gonna have 400 hp when you're car is out. granted I dont know what setup you're running but I would be willing to bet you wouldnt dyno 400 whp.

since you didnt listen to my first post heres the easy breakdown.

So there is a few questions I'm still trying to figure out..

1. Is a 400hp V8 the same as a 400hp 4 cylinder? YES. 400hp = 400hp so doesnt matter how ya get there.

2. How do we increase the top speed of our cars? get more power. this is an easy one.

3. Is this a good way to set up a turbo for performance? I'm guessing you dont know much about performance. you're tuning on the kit will be more important then the placement. If you trust the shop to do the work then you should trust the way they are installing it.

Thanks Lucky_317,
I WILL be spending a crap load of money. So far I have about $60,000 into it and I'm only about half way done with this project.
I did listen to your first post and I appreciate your input. I just like to get everybodies opinion too. That's why I still ask. Plus I'm just really bored sitting in this damn country for a year. That's why I bug you guys so much. The guys in my platoon sure as hell don't want to sit around and talk about Celicas.
You're right about me not knowing much about performance. Thank you for pointing that out. My brother calls me Wax Boy, because that's all I know how to do to my car.
I know the placement of the pipes is not important. Just want to make sure everything is perfect. I do trust my shop, but I think the experts on here might know some things about our car that they don't.
I hope you didn't think I was being a jerk when I replied to your last post. I was just kidding around with you. Sorry if it wasn't funny to you. Thanks again for your post.

so, if I read that right you've spent $60,000 on a celica GT for just a turbo? I'd really like to see a break down of what you're putting in there cause for that much money you could buy 2 GT's + push one up over 300 whp and prolly still have some left over.

No, it's a show car. The engine is just part of what I have spent.

I posted my mod list at the bottom of page one in this topic.

Lucky, 400 HP V8 is not the same as 400 HP on a 4 cyl, if you read my prior posts, you'd know why.

I don't care if you mislead yourself, but don't mislead the other users on here, torque plays a huge difference in the acceleration game, and the powerbands are completely different between an inline-4 and a V8 engine.

First off, you have twice as many slugs firing off in a v8 than an inline four, that's double the mass slinging around in the engine. A v8 only needs to work half as hard to make the same power as a 4-cyl with an identical HP rating.

Now, if you have a 4-cylinder engine, and a comparable 8-cyl, you may reach 400 HP on that 4-cyl engine, but you don't get that 400 HP until you reach about 8K RPM, on a V8, you'd reach peak power at about half that, around 4K RPM.

Double the pistons also give more torque. Say you want to do a burnout in that 4-cyl car, you have to rev the motor higher than normal, and dump the clutch to break the tires loose. Most V8 cars can break the tires loose a lot easier, most auto v8's can smoke the tires from a stand-still in first gear.

Tourque is the measure of how much force is turning the drive wheels. As an example, let's use a jar with a stubborn lid, you may be strong as an ox, but unless you apply ample torque to the lid to get the seal to break, you won't be able to open that jar. 4-cyl engines are like handing the jar to a little kid, while the V8 is like handing the jar to a bodybuilder.

Only drawback is wheel spin, but, if you can contrl the wheel spin, and get the tires to hook by throttle control, a proper burnout to get the tires sticky, and adding an LSD (Known as a posi to the musclecar guys) that car will launch and reach it's top speed a lot sooner.

Boost is irrelevant since you can add forced induction to the v8 as well, and for less money to boot, so the turbo option is a moot issue.

To conclude, here's the cliffs notes:

4-cylinder

pros: Lighter in weight,More fuel efficient, and can rev higher. Takes well to turbocharging.

cons:

Works twice as hard to make the same HP, takes longer to achieve peak HP and torque, torque numbers are pretty low to begin with. Doesn't take well to supercharging. Wears quicker under boost.

V8 Engine:

Pros: Produce peak HP and Torque much sooner, works half as hard as a 4-cyl. makes more power from the factory, modification is inexpensive, and takes well to supercharging. also, solid construction handles boost and nitrous like a dream.

Cons: Not nearly as fuel-efficient, redlines lower (usually around 5-6K Rpm, depending on the engine) heavier in weight than most 4-cyls, and turbo is not the best option (due to turbo lag + short rev range)


Sure, you can build a fast 4-cyl, but it will take twice as much modification and lots of cash when compared to a V8 build. It's also not nearly as fun in a straight line.

Most musclecars handle like junk, but in a drag race, there's no replacement for displacement!

You make it sound as if one powerband is a circle and the other is a square. That's true that the torque curves are very different, but the power curves in the relevant rpms of a drag race can be very similar between the V8 and I4. badceli is not asking about a street race. He wants to know about a drag race on a track. You can mention the low-end torque of the V8, but: If it doesn't help in winning, it doesn't mean a thing. I'm not saying there isn't a time when the torque is useful for the V8. I'm saying you are wrong by saying this (from your earlier post):
does this apply in a street race or on a track? you will say it doesn't matter I know. I will take care of your statement: "a V8 WILL...reach peak power a lot sooner." what do you mean by "a lot"? 4000 rpms? 3000 rpms? You make that known here:
Wrong. Just in case you try to take this back later, I will reiterate what you are saying so people don't forget. Basically: "The V8 makes peak horsepower at about half the rpms of where the I4 makes the same peak horsepower." You are passing this off as truth. You can reply before I make my full post, but I should caution you.

Also:
We've already established that both cars have 400 hp as the title of the thread indicates, so there's no need to talk about such and such being cheaper or easier to make faster. That wasn't the question.

But overall I liked your comments, for example:

That is VERY good advice.

either way in a drag race its always power to weight which has the most impact

That is right. The point of others already having mentioned gearing and torque (affecting average hp) is that those things play into the NET effect of POWER. Yes when people calculate POWER to weight ratios to determine ET's, they use peak power, but as we know that calculation is not that accurate b/c of the reasons mentioned above.

Among two cars with the same peak power and equally skilled drivers, it is true that in some cases the heavier car can win because of net power considering all of the factors mentioned. Throw in RWD and FWD traction issues and races can get even closer.

:werd:

Okay QTRMLR_1, I'm tired of waiting to see if Rave669 will respond. I would like to see what you came up with on this.
Would you mind?

Then I'll let it slip to the back pages.

Any monkey can drag race, circuit racing is where it's at. It's just my opinion but a 400hp fwd 4 banger would be awesome, racing engines live in the high revs(*). I think this is where VVTL-i will be your best friend and with dominate v-8's(*). This is all my opinion thou.

*:Unless the v8 has some funky gearing that takes advantage of low range torque.

apparently YOU are the one who needs to read previous posts. I already stated my thoughts on this and I'm not about to repeat myself.

SO, do everyone a favor, read back through this thread and then see how rediculous your post is nice try though

here in case you missed it I posted on this page

https://celicahobby.com/ubbthrea...part=3&vc=1

help ya out a bit

The person asking the question does realize only a real race can determine the answer, but is seeking a theoretical answer at this time. I will attempt to answer the theoretical question to the best of my ability.

To best predict the outcome of the race in question: a 400 hp 1996 Mustang (V8) vs a 400 hp 2002 Toyota Celica GT (I4) we must first outline the predominant factors concerning each cars performance in the quarter mile.

For the sake of comparison, we will assume 400 hp is at the wheels since the drivetrain losses of RWD are greater than FWD.

I. The Predominant Factors are:

1. RWD vs FWD Launch.
2. Gearing.
3. Relevance of Torque/Average hp
4. Weight.

We shall end with a race winner prediction:

Assumptions:

The person asking the question has stated we shall have equal drivers in our theoretical consideration.

Considering the 400 whp goal we shall make the following engine assumptions:

Mustang:
If the 96 Stang is a GT, then the owner will do the 2V to 4V conversion, functionally-wise making it a 96-98 Modular 4.6 L 4V (DOHC), that the 96-98 Cobra had. If the 96 Stang is not a GT, then it must be a Cobra. So the we will assume the owner has the Mod. 4.6 L 4V as the basis for achieving the hp goal. We will assume the owner will choose a centrifugal-type supercharger such as Vortech or ProCharger.

Celica:
The owner will use the 1ZZ-FE and turbocharge it. The engine will be built with MWR internals and will use the GReddy e-manage, along with C2Gass ecu mod to remove the stock rev limiter. The owner at a later time may switch to the Apexi PowerFC.

I. Predominant Factors:
Lets examine the extent to which each factor affects the cars in consideration:

1. RWD vs FWD Launch.

Assumptions: Since we have equal drivers, this means that each driver is experienced and skilled enough to drive each system to its greatest potential. We will assume each car has the best possible suspension setup for launching.
We are assuming optimum track conditions for both drivers, and by this we mean optimum conditions in each lane.

RWD Mustang:
From extensive browsing of mustangforums.com , stangnet.com and fordpower.net , it has been determined that the exceptional drivers of 96-98 mustangs w/ the optimum drag suspension, are able to achieve 60 times of 1.5 - 1.6 s on Mickey Thompson ET Streets (the drag slicks of choice). The 1.5 s 60 is of course rare even among great drivers.

FWD Celica:
It is known in the Celica community that one most exceptional driver of a Turbo GTS has pulled a 1.85 s 60 on drag radials. Other highly experienced Celica drivers can pull a 2.0 s 60 on drag radials. We will assume that all of these experienced and skilled drivers can pull a 1.80 s 60 on M/T ET Drag (drag slicks). We will assume that the 1.80 s 60 time is readily obtainable on turbocharged FWD cars, utilizing electronic boost control and running on drag slicks. The support for this assumption is in the thousands of runs made by stock-bodied FWD cars pushing 400+ whp via F/I. The 60 of 1.80 s is a conservative number as FWD turbo cars weighing 3000 lbs have reached as low as a 1.5 s 60.

In terms of the launch:
We shall estimate that the ˜96 Mustang will have a .2 - .3 sec advantage over the ˜02 Celica.

2. Gearing

The ˜96 Mustang comes with the T-45 5-speed transmission. Besides having unfavorable gearing it wont last long transmitting the large amount of torque that amounts to 400 hp. In order to compete with the gearing of the Celica we shall discuss, the owner must swap to the 2000 Mustang Cobra R T-56 6-speed which has the following gear ratios:

2.97/2.07/1.43/1.0/0.8/0.62

(Note that we are giving the Mustang the best possible chance against the Celica in terms of gearing, since it is likely the Mustang owner will only be able to obtain the 2003 Tremec T-56 transmission with ratios: 2.66/1.78/1.30/1.00/.80/.63)

The 96 Mustang comes with a measly 3.08 final drive ratio. We shall assume the owner to upgrade to a final drive ratio of 4.30 recommended by serious mustang drag racers who use N/A or F/I.

The Celica owner will use the C2Power 6 speed tranny for the Celica GT.
The gear ratios are as follows:

2.909/2.07/1.529/1.12/.884/.70 and final drive ratio of 4.312.

Conclusion:
The gearing will be similar between the two cars. The Celica does have the advantage in critical 3rd gear with the ratio of 1.529 to the Mustangs 1.43. And there is a Celica advantage in 4th of 1.12 to the Mustang 1.00 . 6th gear is also different, but that is irrelevant in the quarter mile.

3. Relevance of Torque/Average hp:

Lets clarify some concepts:
Torque is the twisting force developed at the crank by the power strokes of the cylinders at a certain rpm. Torque is directly related to an engines volumetric efficiency or VE at a certain rpm. Volumetric efficiency is a measure of how well an engine is able to fill and discharge its cylinders with air and fuel. The greater the VE the greater the force imparted on the pistons by the ignited air/fuel mixture, leading to more torque on the crank. Many factors influence VE, and it is possible to increase VE by using Forced Induction (F/I). The higher an engine revs the less air it is able to take in and discharge on each 4-stroke cycle. This is why all torque curves trail off on the upper rpm range.
Torque is what is real and measurable. Dynamometers measure torque and calculate horsepower. Power or horsepower is a concept. It is a concept of work output over a certain amount of time. Or from another perspective it is the amount of energy put into the cars motion over a certain amount of time. It is the horsepower curve that is the best description of how well a car accelerates. Torque matters because that is the measurable force we use to calculate horsepower. We also learn much from the torque curve of an engine as it indicates the engines volumetric efficiency according to rpm, and this info is useful for tuning purposes. And more peak torque generally means more low-end horsepower.

Horsepower = (Torque x RPM)/5252

The 5252 is the factor to make everything ends up correctly in the right units.
Torque units is in lb-ft.

V8s make a tremendous amount of low-end torque compared to their I4 counterparts. Keeping peak horsepower constant, more torque on the low-end does increase average horsepower for a certain car. However, when determining whether a V8 or an I4 will win a quarter mile drag race, we must look at the torque and horsepower curves of each car to see what significance the difference in torque has between the two cars with the same peak horsepower.

For our examination:
We will use a dyno-chart of Brett Slones supercharged 97 Mustang Cobra putting out 394.54 whp and 359.70 wtq.
We will use a dyno-chart of the MWR turbo 1zz-FE engine putting out 384.4 whp and 309.4 wtq.

The 1zz-FE is from the shop MR-S, but we shall deem that acceptable since we are considering the torque and power characteristics of the engine and not the launching characteristics of the RWD MR-S. We shall assume that this turbo 1zz-FE in the Mid-engine RWD MR-S will perform the same on a dyno as in a Front-engine FWD Celica.