Celica Forums General Discussion Engine and Performance 400hp V8 vs. 400hp 4 cylinder

The dyno-charts:
1st we have the supercharged '97 Mustang Cobra.
Feel free to print them out or open them in a separate window for quick reference.

The turbo 1zz-FE.

We will examine the power level of both cars during each phase of a drag race.
(Note that the term redline shall be assumed to mean the shift rpm).

Launch Power

We have already made predictions as far as the 60 time of both cars, giving a .2 - .3 sec faster advantage to the mustang. The launch times discussed so far are mainly determined by driver skill, drive system, and traction (track, tires, burnout-also a skill). But as soon as the tires hook, the power made in launch rpms determines which car accelerates faster coming out of the 60. So lets examine the power output of the cars during the launch phase and also the run to redline in 1st gear.

The Mustang driver will initially slip the clutch up from approximately 4000 rpm to redline at 6800 rpm. The driver will taper off the clutch slipping as the rpms rise.
At 4000 rpm the Mustang will put out 250 hp. At 5000 rpm the Mustang will put out 340 hp. Of course not all horsepower is being transferred due to some driver intended clutch slippage.

The Celica driver will drop the clutch from 7000 rpm to land at about 4000 rpm. At 4000 rpm the Celica will put out 145 hp. The Celica driver will quickly go half throttle to let the slicks immediately hook and then go on full throttle up past 4000 rpms to redline at 7400. Compared to the Mustang 340 hp at 5000 rpm the Celica will have put out 240 hp.

Between 4000-6200 rpm the mustang shows a 115 - 10 hp advantage over the Celica at respective rpms all the way until each car hits its powerband plane, with the difference becoming less the closer to 6200 rpm. This of course being the result of the mustangs greater low-end torque creating more horsepower.
( again, horsepower = (rpm * torque)/5252 ).


There is the fallacious stereotype that the V8 will make the same peak power at half the rpms of where the I4 makes that power. From the charts, this is obviously not the case.

The Mustang reaches its powerband plane at 5600 rpms. The Celica reaches its powerband plane at 6200 rpms, 600 rpms later than the Mustang.

Notice how the powerbands are fairly level. Although both powerbands contain peak hp values at differing points, for our discussion we shall consider them to be flat maintaining a constant hp throughout the powerbands.

The Mustang revs safely up to 6800 rpm, high among V8s.
The Celica GT revs safely up to 7400 rpm, low considering the higher revving I4s.

The length of both the Mustang powerband and Celica powerband is 1200 rpm.

The Mustang has the power advantage in the launch and in 1st gear in that it has a considerable amount of horsepower over the Celica between 4000-6200 (115 10 hp). The horsepower advantage does taper off quickly the closer they rev to 6200 rpm.

2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear horsepower:

The Mustang will rev to 6800 rpm in 1st and shift into 2nd landing at 4700 rpm according to the already disclosed gearing ratio. At 4700 rpm the Mustang makes 312 hp.

The Celica will rev to 7400 rpm in 1st and shift into 2nd landing at 5200 rpm according to the already disclosed gearing ratio. At 5200 rpm the Celica makes 290 hp.

In 2nd gear, the Mustang will rev to 6800 rpm and shift into 3rd landing at 4700 where again it makes 312 hp.

In 2nd gear, the Celica will rev to 7400 rpm and shift into 3rd landing at 5500 rpm where it makes 335 hp.

In 3rd gear, the Mustang will rev to 6800 rpm and shift into 4th landing at 4800 rpm, where it makes 325.

In 3rd gear, the Celica will rev to 7400 rpm and shift into 4th landing at 5400 rpm where it makes 330 hp.


To summarize the hp levels at the respective gear landing points:


-------Mustang----Celica
2nd------312--------290
3rd------312--------335
4th------325--------330


Note that the Mustang dyno chosen indicates 10 more peak hp than the Celica dyno.
Observing no hp spikes in the dyno chart of either car, we will assume that if the Celica were to have 10 more peak hp, the average hp in the powerband would be increased by 10 hp. Since we are considering the powerbands level and constant for this discussion, each car shall have 395 hp peak and the average hp in both of their powerbands shall be 395 hp.
We shall assign 10 more hp to the Celica landing points as well:


-------Mustang-----Celica
2nd------312--------300
3rd------312--------345
4th------325--------340


To recap, the Mustang landed at 4700,4700, and 4900 and note its powerband starts at 5600.

The Celica landed at 5200, 5500, and 5400 and note its powerband starts at 6200.

From the landing points to the beginning of the powerbands, we shall assume the curves are straight lines. Since the rpm distances to the powerbands are almost the same (900,900,700 to 1000, 700,800) we shall use the landing point hp numbers as rough estimations of average horsepower made before the powerbands. Although we could find and sum the area of a rectangle and trapezoid for each car in each gear in order to find the integral horsepower or total area under the curves, that wont be necessary for our discussion. Actually, our straight-line assumption benefits the Mustang perhaps unfairly since the Celica power curve has a distinctive hump leading up to the powerband. That would be more hp for the Celica we are not considering.

So if the two cars weighed the same:
In 2nd gear, the Mustang would pull slightly on the Celica, until both hit their powerband, in which the gearing is identical.
In 3rd gear, the Celica would pull hard on the Mustang considering the large landing hp differential and the already mentioned gearing difference with the Celica at 1.529 and the Mustang at 1.43. To compound the effect, the Celica hits peak hp 200 rpm sooner than the Mustang in this gear. To illustrate the effect of gearing, when both cars have reached 395 peak hp, the Mustang is putting out an effective 565 hp to the Celicas 604 hp.
In 4th gear, the Celica would pull hard on the Mustang considering the Mustangs 1.00 gearing versus the Celicas 1.12 gearing. Gearing considered in the powerband, we have Mustangs 395 hp to Celicas 442 hp.

In Conclusion:

The Mustang only benefits from its low-end torque in the launch and part of 1st gear. After that in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear, the Celica has the clear advantage. But remember these results were qualified with the statement that the cars weigh the same. This is definitely not the case. So that brings us to:


4. Weight

The already hefty 96 Mustang with the stronger and heavier T-56 and with supercharger will weigh a minimum of 3600 lbs.

The Celica GT weighs approximately 2400 lbs from the factory. Assuming the owner does not remove most of his show equipment, we shall add another 200 lbs to bring us to 2600 lbs.

Just considering the weight to (peak) horsepower ratios we have a tremendous difference, with the Mustang at 9:1 and the Celica at 6.5:1 (smaller is better).

II. Race Prediction

Given equal drivers, it is clear that the Celica would be the winner. The Mustang launch advantage of .2 to .3 seconds cannot stand up to the overall power to weight ratio differential favoring the Celica.

The power the Mustang has coming out of the 60 in the low-end is offset by its additional 1000 lbs over the Celica. Down the track in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear, considering gearing, average hp and weight: the Celica dominates.

wow ...i am scared someone hold me

Thanks again Mike. Got one more for you. If the MWR MR-S isn't sleeved and can still handle 385whp, then a 1zz that is sleeved with the big bore kit and built internals should be able to handle more than just a higher boost level. You would think it would be able to handle maybe 20psi or so and at least a 65 shot. What do you guys think?
I still have to go read about that 530whp Scion TC, I thought they said it had a 1zz. Not sure though.

So far, here is the list of people who think the Celica will beat the Mustang..
1. AZZKIKR
2. Celicadragon
3. spaztikid
4. Stefanoc
5. QTaintsobad
6. EuRoBoYGT
7. REDDASHCELICA
8. eric_h
9. Death
10. Illusive
11. QTRMLR_1
12. Myself

Here are the ones who think the Mustang would win...
1. Rave669
2. renfield
Not sure who Lucky_317 thinks will win.

After reading what QTRMLR_1 just wrote, I am definitely convinced the Celica would take the Mustang.

So now here is what I'm going to do just for the fun of it. The Mustang owner we are talking about is here in the same camp as I am. I am going to get him to come on here and try to prove QTRMLR_1 wrong.

Sound like fun?

I like fun.

Now the question is win by how much? That's what the debate should really be about.

I'd put my bet on the mustang. the RWD would put a hurtin on the celica off the line (done right of course) and te celica wont have enough of an advantage to over take it

that's after reading what I wrote?

nice read qtrmlr_1

that seems to have taken a conciderable amount of time.



one part that would need to be calculated is the amount of gap the mustang would produce by the end of 1st gear and through 2nd gear, and if the 4 banger could make up that gap (in feet) before the 1/4 runs out.


another factor to slap in would be turbo lag, if we assume the 1zz has anti-lag software(not currently available) for consistant boost between upshifts then a few asumptions can be drawn, in addition to launching in boost from the 1zz.

but overall good write up

I'm a rebel

QTRMLR_1,
Like my hero says..."It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning".



I'm kidding of course. Please do not think I'm a fan of that stupid ass movie. That line just came to me when you asked how much the Celica would win by.

badceli, you might think about getting perhaps one of the best boost controllers money can buy:

http://www.world-motorsports.com/tbc.htm

and it would certainly help you if the HydraEMS comes out and performs.

http://www.hydraems.com/ems-index.html

another thing that isnt necessarily 100 percent true is how your relating the power curve to acceleration...

when you dyno a car, your starting at a VERY low rpm in 3rd gear... so there really is no power down there for us...

when "the greatest" drivers launch their car, they launch at around 8000 rpm in the celi... so once they drop/slip that clutch, they're putting down gobs of power...

same thing with the mustang...



now if they were doing a street start the dyno curve would be a good estimate of when the power would kick in.

Damn Mike! $1080.95 for a boost controller?!! That thing looks nice, but wouldn't Greddy, HKS or Apexi do the job for a couple hundred? I'm kind of out of money for the year. I still have to sell my Jet-Ski just to get the Racing Harts I need to fit the APR kit.

And just to let you know, whenever I just log out in the middle of our conversations, it's because my hour is up in this internet cafe' and I have to go get back in line and sign in again.

So which boost controller do you recomend for a couple hundred bucks?

People keep talking about turbo lag being a problem, but they still haven't said if my 65 shot is going to take care of that.
I just hope I made the right choice with the Precision sc 32 turbo. It's good for 480hp, but will it hurt a turbo to push it to it's max limit? Another stupid question, what will be my whp if my hp at the flywheel is 480?

The ems you mentioned also looks good, but I already bought the Greddy E-Manage. Hope that will be good enough.

Welcome to the world of wieght. lighter equals faster

right. look at the dyno. actually I heard most prefer 4th because 3rd gives a bit too high of a reading. The dyno torque reading takes into account gear ratio of the gear used and final drive ratio. So what if your acceleration is slow on the dyno when you start in 3rd. After adjustments (albeit maybe slightly inaccurate as mentioned above), torque measurement and power calculation should be the same despite the gear.


I know that. The GTS drivers. You could do that also in a GT but not without upgrading the valves, valve springs. Besides: the graph I showed of the 1zz-FE indicated MWR went up to 7400, so I assumed around 7000+ was where the clutch drop should occur, unless I was given proof on a dyno e.g. that over 7400 was safe. That was my example. I worked with it.


I researched and accurately represented how the RWD Mustang drivers launch. They slip and taper off. The rpm they drop from won't be as high relatively for them since they slip.


again maybe you skimmed through my report. There's something you don't understand or maybe you didn't understand my presentation.

yeah Illusive was right about how we'd be better off with anti-lag software I grant. But we don't know how bad or good things are until we try them, and then tune. A lot can be overcome and accomplished through clever tuning and clever solutions. If you're going to use nitrous and if you want the best tune, you'll want the NX Maximizer, the best progresssive nitrous controller right now.

http://www.nitrousexpress.com/Pages/Maximizer.htm

Of course software based nitrous control like through the AEM EMS or hopefully the Hydra EMS would be best. But you'll have to do a lot to hook up the AEM universal, and that will cost you.


You probably did as long as it works well with all of the other parts, and it was installed right. Don't think it would hurt it if it really is a "precision"-made turbo, just some piping might blow off as it could be more likely. I'm not sure if anyone's determined the drivetrain loss in the Celica by measuring bhp from an engine dyno and then measuring whp from a chasis dyno. If I had to guess, maybe 410-430 whp depending on the dyno assuming SAE corrections have been made.

Thanks again Mike,
I do hate to get a half ass boost controller. I would wait and save up for the best one there is, but they are about to mold all my electronics into the dash and paint it. All this I have already paid for, just waiting for them to finish. So with all this work I have asked them to do is why I'm broke now. That's why I can't afford the more expensive boost controller and I can't do it later, since everything is about to get molded in.

Thanks for the tip on the NX Maximizer. Sounds like a good thing to have. Never heard of that, but that is something I can add later in a few months.

Okay. Thanks for your help. I'm going to leave you alone for a while. After I seen you go off on that new guy in the General Discusion forum when he asked about a turbo, I'm guessing your getting tired of all the stupid questions.

Maybe I'll start a topic and call it "Topics Not To Start" then we could list all the things we would not like new guys to start topics about, since they have already been done and are still in this site. What do you think?

^^ haha. No that was from before if you look at the date I posted that stuff in that General Discussion thread. I wasn't going off on him as it was supposed to be tongue in cheek humor .

Are the guys who are doing the molding leaving space for a boost controller? possibly the profec e-01?

Cool. I was afraid you were getting sick of all my questions too.

Yes, I still have to decide on a boost controller. If you say the profec e-01 is good one, I'll take your advise and email the shop to tell them to put that one in. All the interior work will be last. They are still in the middle of the turbo install. When that's done they will mold the GT300 kit on, then do the interior.

I'm going to go look at the profec e-01 really quick. I'll be right back.

Oh, I just got back from the Mustang guys office. This should be a lot of fun if he comes on here. You feel up for it?

Oh, okay. I have seen the profec e-01. Yeah, that thing is the shit. I would love to have that molded into my center console below the DVD screen. I always thought that would be really cool, but wasn't sure if it would be worth the money. I didn't know if a cheaper one would work just as well, but it looks like that thing does a lot of shit that could come in really handy.
The question is, would a dumd ass like me be able to figure out how to work that thing?

What I would not do is just throw the profec e-01 in my car like this Civic owner did.
I think something like that needs to be molded into the dash.

right, you're going for show and performance. you'd want it in an easy place to reach so you can make adjustments from the driver's seat. I'm thinking...

yup.

it's just like a mini laptop that's all. you just need to understand fuel and ignition tuning concepts. But really those doing the tuning should be able to have it set up where you can switch to different boost levels whether you are driving on the street or racing.

now come on you're not a dumd ass. if you know how an engine works it's not hard to understand or learn about the tuning adjustments that are made. I'm sure you know how a turbo works, and if you don't it should be no problem learning. It's not rocket science.

I'm always ready. But if they don't bring anything good, I just get bored. I don't mean to sound cocky but just being honest. But it's all good as long as they don't insult me. That's when I let them have it.

There's a reason I took so long to write that, although I was really busy with a lot of other things. If I were in the military, I'd be the sniper.

Yes, I know how an engine works...You put gas in it and it goes. Right? You mean there is more to it than that? Shit. I have a lot to learn.

The Mustang guy IS going to insult you and there is no way he will let you have the last word. You letting him have it is going to be were this get's fun.
He is a good guy and a good friend of mine, but he would never admit that a Celica could beat him.

As for you being a sniper, you must be in a lot better shape than I am. That's a damn hard school to pass. I couldn't do it.

I ran a marathon in under four hours without much preperation for it. and I could still walk the next day haha so I guess I did ok. And I do love to shoot too. If I weren't so much into racing, I'd have a nice assault rife by now. But then again to my knowledge the closest 1000 yard rifle range is in Coalinga, CA which is several hours away. If I were still in Vegas, I could just go to the Boulder 1000 yard range. oh well.

at least there are tracks here in So Cal.

Well sounds like you could make it through the school then.

And you are damn lucky to live in Cali. Cali is my home and I miss it.

damn you still have this thread going Eric wooooot

Hey iggy! What's up man? Haven't talked to you in a couple days.

About this thread still going, you ain't seen nothing yet. The Mustang guy we are talking about is about to come on here and try to prove QTRMLR_1 wrong.

Now THAT'S going to be a show to see.

I can't wait. I've followed this thread since it started. QTRMLR_1 you've made some awesome points. I'm with you. The Celica would win. Thanks for the awesome read. I've learned alot.

woohoo mustang forever RWD > all

seriously if he doesn't have anything logical to say it's going to be pointless. There'd be nothing I can do but roll my eyes. If that's all you see from me, then you'll know.

However, if he can provide a computer simulation running gearing, weight, and the exact power curve through the quarter mile (and also have inputs for a lot of other stuff like drive system launching and driver skill in shift times), and then show I was wrong, then maybe I would take him seriously. I believe a computer sim would prove me right.

BTW, I've been watching videos of Mustangs with around 400 whp weighing around 3400 lbs running at the track. So I have an idea of how fast they are. And these aren't amateurs who don't know how to launch or shift. And of course I'm comparing those times to MWR's time, also considering the launch factor, and the lighter weight of the MR-S.

Well, I guess we will see what he comes up with. He's probably trying to do up a report like you did. He's not the kind of person to just say "My Mustang will smoke you guys" and not give us a reason why it would.

Lucky_317,
I'm was just curious if you own a Mustang or if you still have a Celica?

spectraGTS,
I know what you mean. I have learned a lot too, with this thread and the one about racing engines. I think if any new guy ever comes on and asks about engines or racing, we could just tell him to read these two topics.

I love cars in general. Although I am an obvious fan of the Celica, I respect the Mustang and what it can do. As I spent a lot of time on the Mustang boards I liked the Mustang even more despite my reservations about its safety, handling, reliability etc. You can see that in many areas of the report I gave the Mustang the best possible advantage to combat any bias I may have. But I can't lie to myself. Theoretically with equal drivers, the Celica wins hands down. Now in real life, you know anything can happen.

For him to do the same thing would mean serious research on the Celica which would be unreasonable to expect of him. He may as well copy my report. I may have even found out more about his car than he currently knows. If he doesn't research the Celica and what it can be tuned to do with the proper parts in place, he will not give a fair prediction of the race, especially since we know what you are planning to do to your car.

At this point, if he were wise, he wouldn't say a thing.

no its actually a joke. I HATE ford with a passion. used to own one and had nothing but $hit happen from those people.

and yes I still have the celica It may irritate me cause I cant get enough power outa it BUT I love my little car.

Damn good point Mike. He could have read your report already and decided this was a fight he could not win. I didn't even think about that. I'll make a trip back over to his office and ask him.

Same here Lucky,
I had a 69 Mach 1 and had nothing but trouble. I loved the car and it was my favorite until I got the Celica. Not sure how good the new ones are.
So what was your MOS?

Mike,
Did I ever tell you how jealous I am of this picture? I would love to be able to do something like this in my garage.

You're 26 and it looks like you can take a Celica apart down to the frame, modify everything and put it all back together by yourself.

I would have to pay a shop if I wanted anything done to my car. I just realized that we never talk about the mods that you have done. Like...your exhaust control valve or water wetter. I don't even know what the hell those are.

^^ DAMN!!! I'm jealous too!!!

haha thanks for being jealous

Let's Play: "Identify everything in the picture"

Tranny, CAI, drive line, axles, clutch, dics, flywheel, sway bar, red top and the rest I don't know.

okay first off we have a cherry picker, floor stands, 2 floor jacks, C60 transaxle, some kind of short ram intake, front crossmember, hammer, optima redtop, right drive axle connected to hub, left drive axle connected to hub, exhaust manifold, shift fork and through out bearing, front and rear motor mounts, clutch disk, pressure plate, 2 front rotors, a front sway bar, subrame, some tie rods,

I was going to ask why you popped out the subframe, but realized you were probaby installing a new front sway, concidering your front suspention isn't stock, interesting choice for a mounting location for the chains, we usually use the front most bolt from the passanger side mount, and the tab behind near the exhaust manifold(which is the same one you used)

your garage is conciderably cleaner than teh one im used to working in :chuckles:

that looks like a good 4-5 hours of work right there.

yep got everything.

that's actually a cut Injen CAI. I don't like how the short rams on the market curve around 180 degrees. and I only went with Injen since the curve to the throttle body is more gradual than a 90 degree turn. I know the MAF is not in the best spot, but I figured the PowerFC would take care of any adjustment that might be needed. I thought of getting a custom intake straight from the throttle body to the left fender, but that'd be too weird. And then there's the thought on rotating that now Injen short ram to the front to suck in air from a cut hood. But I already cut my stock hood and it wasn't pretty so I'm definitely not going to cut my carbon fiber one. I could use a scoop and have two scoops. But enough blabbering about best N/A intake configs. I think I'll eventually go turbo haha.

I dropped the subframe to make it easier to get my DC sports header in and tighten the bolts or nuts all up. I know I didn't have to, but felt like it. I was also able to get my rear motor mount out more easily to put in the Energy Suspension inserts. Maybe not a good idea since a couple of the 4 rack and pinion bolts took forever to get off and on.

If we take a look at the interior of my car, the name of the game would be:
"Identify everything NOT there!"